The state of the figure industry or money money money...
This is just a little start to make other people think and evaluate and to get to know the opinions of other collectors regarding this topic.
It is not supposed to be a mindless rant but it sure is an opinionated view with truth in it.
To make it simple:
Figure prices are getting outrageous and are too high already versus quality has gone up in the last years.
Back when I started serious collection Alter was the unchallenged king of quality compared to the competitors but it also was the manufacturer with the highest prices.
Fast-forward to today and the market is much more diverse with more than just a handful of well made figures from many names and especially "Good Smile Company" has risen BUT:
Exactly this company, some call them "Evil Smile Company" already, almost floods the market with high prices release after release.
With many figures over the 9000 mark (no pun intended but if you wish... ^_^ I mean Yen) up to 12000 and 13000, combined with gazilions of mini-figures (I'm really wondering if Ignis will be Nendoroid number 666... because she is devilish... and yeah there will be this much) I'm saying:
They just charge too much... because they can.
Companies like e.g. Kotobukiya, Gift and more do release figures with quite the quality and still can stay in the 7000 to 8000 range.
[Discussion can start here]
Back to my teaser line. Quality is a part too and sure the figure quality, especially leg material, details and accessories have all gone up.
But: Isn't that a kind of "natural evolution of things"?
Things get better over time and with the whole market established and not quite in the niche market position I doubt that all prices are really justifiable.
Remember: This is just a thought process. Maybe I'm totally wrong, maybe dead on... and maybe (as always) is the truth right in the middle.
I still love my hobby and for this year I already ordered figures with a total worth over 450 Euros (or US$ 620 or 55,570 JPY) plus shipping (so let's say or 510 Euros or US$700 or 62,740 JPY).
FYI: I live in Germany (Europe).
Happy pondering!!
You get what you paid. I say that it's very evenly balanced. Quality goes up, so price goes up.
Us foreigners arn't as evenly balanced because of shipping but it can't be helped.
but I think some of the nendo's are excellent quality, and are still 30-50 (I guess that is expensive)
I find Nendos to be really overpriced for what they are. They lack the detail or size to justify that price. They look cute, but I would rather buy a Figma or Revoltech with that money.
They have superb painting and shading that Figmas don't have. That's my justification for it.
figure price are not even close to outrageous (even if I'm poor T_T).
=P -you are buying the wrong figures then
j/k, and I feel your pain, since right now I have no money to even buy gunpla
couldn't I say, the exact same thing to all collectibles? I do agree that figure costs are pretty high, but resale is much higher if the conditions are right. I can see where you are going, but I can see where the industry is going as well (along with Garage Kits... Want to know expensive? Buy an original garage kit)
The Garage kit industry prices have gone up, because the supply has become depleted. This isn't the same sort of problem that your facing in the figure market.
Garage kit prices, unfortunately are more about supply and demand of such kits.. as well as the cost of materials that the kit is made from.
But, yes sadly, most beautiful garage kits are really expensive.
Yeah the cost has risen so much in these years that I've almost stopped buying AFs from Japan.
We must however consider that the Euro (I am italian) exchange rate with the Yen from the start of the economic crisis became worse (in 2007 1 Euro was 160 yen worth and maybe more).
If you add the fact that we foreigner have to add the shipping cost and the custom fees (never paid less than 20 euros of custom fee) the price is too high with what you get in your chubby, greedy hands.
However we have to consider that the price of the figures has risen greatly and not always the quality is matched with the price with figures like Nanoha and Fate bikini from GSC that are priced over 10000 yen each and I don't consider being that great models if the price being justified only by the humongous scale.
The only thing we foreigner can do is buying from the US where we can pay less since not always the shipping is charged with the custom fee (however this is not a given) or buying from Japan with SAL (where the package value isn't declared so the custom can't apply the fee and normally small packages are not opened by the officers) but we have to consider the risk of seeing our precious figure disappear (happened once with a Zaku HG, I was never refunded by HLJ) in the shipping process.
So... After all this much talk: yes, the price of PVC Figures have risen very much in two years and not always the quality justifies the over 9000 price, however is not only the makers' fault.
Well lets look at this problem from another angle. Your paying for a priveledge that until figures became widespread, you didn't have. That was having figures that looked good, that you didn't have to assemble or paint. So thus, yes the price is high for that luxury. But, considering that most of these figures are mass produced, unlike Garage Kits. the price is a bit exorbatant.
I'm also pretty curious to know the industrial cost of the production of an AF like
- design costs (artwork, scultping, prototype)
- raw PVC costs
- assembly costs (I don't think it's too high since they are done in China like Danny shown us in a previous post)
- packaging costs
- delivery costs
...And any other cost related to the procuction of a single model that I may have forgotten
marketing, as in ads. Maybe danny can find out... if it's not like an industry secret A rough percentage would be good too, if actual pricing cannot be listed...
I hope the markup GSC charges on the industrial cost isn't something like 300% per model however I think we are over the 100%
This is indeed a very good topic of discussion, however, I would like to add another dynamic to this.
I personally am wondering how much do the Anime creators get out of figure sales. While I don't buy DVDs, I do buy a whole lot of figures and merchandise and that's my way of supporting the industry.
Well most studios/producers make all the return from DVD and merchandise sales as the anime itself and airing it on TV is a pure cost without any return. Only in decent DVD and merchandise sales can they make any money.
lol thats funny so anime producer need to pay for the tv broadcast ??
Normaly its to opposite side ?? Does this also include for One Piece, Bleach and Naruto ??
hahahaha awesome i want that badge, but its prob over priced!!! lols
To respond to some interesting points from you:
I believe that the demand and sales have both gone up so why are the prices not going down (or at least stay the same).
Buying from Japan and shipping from there is still cheaper than from the US or Canada (to Europe) because of the much higher shipping costs (Japan SAL (registered) still cheaper).
Plus 19% taxes here (I know ouch).
Another point: There is a much greater variety of figures out there.
Again look at how much e.g. GSC is "pumping out". Even I bought three figures just from them in the last quarter.
And don't even count the 150 Kanu Unchou variants.
My point with this is: Mass production is already running and as I said the niche market status isn't anymore.
The novelty factor also wears thin.
How many figures does http://myfigurecollection.net/ have in it's database again already?!
I do not agree with the novelty factor -older and most sought after figures are on sale on Ebay for a fortune. Added, even though the figures here are mass produced, it's STILL limited in quantity. These people do not make any more of the older figure, once they are sold out (given a few exceptions).
Limited Quantity + Not in Production/Discontinued = Novelty, regardless of how you look at it
The only figure company whose pricing vs quality bothers me is GSC.
GSC asks 9800 for Black Rock Shooter. It isn't actually a bad price, she's only 1/8 scale, but she has a big, detailed base, and the cannon. However, I heard many stories of people having bad quality with her, like Nekomagic who had a finger print on his. :|
I've also heard quite a few horror stories about other GSC super-hyped GSC figures, like Saber Lily and World is Mine. Going back a bit, there's also Shuraki Rize with her peg problem, although I have no idea if she was expensive.
But all other companies are fine. Alter has pretty consistent high quality, and is never that expensive. I also have a lot of love for Koto, they are super amazing, but I've never had any problems.
Oh, oh, I have one exception... Taki. XD
...but then, I hope no one actually considers Taki as a good figure maker... the garbage they put out with 8000+ price tags...
My biggest complaint is partially cost, but mostly availability. There are figures (Figmas, Mobip,etc..) That I would happily buy, but getting them here in Canada is difficult or not possible if you can't order online. My local Anime shop is pretty good if it's at all possible, but often, the price is steep. one has to deal with distributor mark-up, duties at TWO borders, shipping, and of course, the store has to make some money.
Figmas are now $49.00 CDN and Mobips are around $45.00. Then there's 14% tax on top of that.
A recent acquisition of Saber Lilly was $165.00 before tax. A beautiful figure to be sure, but <ouch>
Don't even get me started on "exclusives"....
This is a really good topic to discuss and to think about.
I think that overall you get what you pay for but you have to take into account that this is still a limited market. Basically these are still collectibles and they are always higher in price than say the mainstream action figures. They are lower production runs, usually they are more complex and detailed.
Personally I really like Alter's figures and really like the quality they put into the latest K-on ones. A good price for the size and quality. Some of the GSC figures are high in price but they are pretty detailed and possibly complex. I have a couple GSC figures on order but mainly I've been getting figmas and nendoroids. I think they are overall worth the money they ask. I dont get many scale figures because I prefer to get something I could play with more.
After seeing the WonderFest preview photos I do think I'll be getting GSC scale figures because I think the pose and details look amazing. I like how the BRS figures look. The anime version has a really dynamic pose which is why I'm interested in that one. To me there are too many figures that look very static by most other companies and that just doesnt justify a purchase for me.
Another point which I think might affect pricing is that no matter what the companies price something at, the aftermarket (ebay and msg boards) will bring a pretty high price for the popular figures. I'm sure some companies would want to make sure they dont price their goods too low and let the 2nd hand sellers make the bulk of the money.
In the end, I think you should buy what you think is worth the money. If you dont, the companies either will be forced to raise the quality and/or lower their prices.
I believe its quite balanced evenly. I'd rather pay the extra 10-30bucks for a figure that looks good than rather it looking bad, that justifies it for me. Although there are some figures that are expensive and the quality of the figure is bad.
Without statistics, we can't say if they are making a huge profit or not.
I remember collecting resin statues back in 2002 from Kotobukiya and Epoch. I got Guilty Gear X Jam holding the dinner plate for $65 USD. Amazing Nurse Nanako resin statue for $55 USD. Tenjo Tenge Aya Natsume doing a high kick for $50. The pvc figures like Pia Carrot were about $40. The price range of 70-100 USD were usually the resin statues. PVCs were 20-60 depending on quality.
the price is ok to me but the shipping price spoils everything
thats you should buy at local shops instead online shops
Local shops mark up the price and that's usually close to how much the shipping is.
Totally wrong, or well, wrong in Italy.
Here MG are sold at more than 100 euros per model for the bigger kits like Sazabi (sought at 150 euros)
This because they are pretty difficult to find and the retailers charge more on the customer because they are probably the only one shop in town with the model so if you cannot order it online they are the only place where you can get it.
At fairs you get prices that at best matches the japanese prices plus shipping and custom but there you have to pay the entry fee so, if you buy only one thing the price is still higher than buying it online in many cases.
paying $120+ for an ounce or two of PVC/ABS sounds insane to me, and yes prices did go up expedentialy, back two years ago for $70-$80(sometimes with shipping included) you could get an awsome figure in 1/6th scale, now theyre in the $100+ range for an OK looking one.
No thank thankyou Japan, I rather drop my monthly figure expenses at my local gunshop and look OPERATOR at the range on the weekends. Or get a ricerocket, tune it, impress girls, ??????, profit!
Which ever you way you choose to spend your money to get the value you want. I do agree that with figures, you get what you pay for. Don't think it's worth the price? Than don't buy it.
U MAD? :)
I find it like normal esp for GSC. i mean yes they do release alot (CURSE YOU GSC TT_TT) at one go and they aren't cheap, but i really like their quality. and really at least it's not liek other branded goods like nike, or what nots. =/ sometimes i doubt any work pt into branded products, but with figurines, i'm quite assured a lot of work has been done =DD
GSC does seem to release a lot of things many people want in a short time. But that means GSC does a good job getting people excited for their products. Figure.fm would be boring if there weren't any figures to get excited for on consistent basis. For me, the consumer with limited resources, maybe part of the excitement is being choosy which figure to buy. I know others out there are choosy because they're running out of space.
Again responding to many of the new points and facts:
I did not mention the rapid rise in exchange rate of the yen that took place approximately two years ago (100 Yen = 0,60 Euros to 0,80 Euros to now 0,75 Euros) and that is correct because it does only affect export costs and is not objective to this discussion.
Yes we do not have facts about PVC costs, marketing, packaging and such but we have still the transparency of the market and the competitor:
Exceptional great figures I got in 2009: Kousaka Tamaki Provokative version (the black one here http://myfigurecollection.net/figure/8087_kousaka_tamaki) froim Kotobukiya with a very solid thik plastic, good painting, great sculpt and free accessories with the pillow and the belly chain. What a package for 8000 Yen!
Alter's Gwendolyn here http://myfigurecollection.net/figure/3671_gwendolyn
So detailed, so big, so awesome... for 7800 Yen
Just two examples how it works in this price range.
Also: SEGA price figures: For 1500 Yen you get quality I would have expected for 3000 or more years ago. I got the Misuzu from Air (10th KEy Memorial Fes. Edition here http://myfigurecollection.net/figure/10720_kamio_misuzu) and the two Lucky Star OVA spoofs (http://myfigurecollection.net/figure/10886_izumi_konata) and they are all great for that price.
With novelity factor I mean that the whole industry is new and figures are (as I said two times before) a niche market. But I think since "Otaku no Video" or so ^_^ and looking and WOnder Festival and it's size and all taht in current Japan my bet is that it is a cemented branch in the otaku market.
They also have an exeptional prediction method the other markets like DVD sales don't:
Think about it how does the figure market work?? - THey announce a new figure let's say half a year in advance. Everyone that seriously ones one, preorders it and when it is released it's gone already because they feed the preorderers and it is out of stock.
So they can play exactly how much they must produce and they always can do re-runs.
Now that is cost effective return of investment there.
Speaking of investment: Maybe the industry did quite some of that and now charges us all for it to return their investment. But again: Why do other companies do not do the same.
But it's not just GSC (they are just the companystanding out the most because of their relatively high rise in quality and populatity in the ranks of to "king Alter").
Side note: I also got the Hatsune Miku "picture frame" figure and I am pleased not not blown away: The hair looks cheap in quality and lousily painted (but the whole idea is "novelity" so I keeep it).
Another figure in 2010 for me it Yamato's "Velvet" here http://myfigurecollection.net/figure/9886_velvet
9800 Yen is quite high but I know the the GK costs 16000 Yen and set a new record in it's scale and quality class in pricing so if the figure will be that detailed it is justified (still much).
So there you have it: Some more gas in the fire of free thinking and discussion!!
I think that the 6 month pre-sale is not only an intelligent way of maximizing the return on the investments made by GSC and the others but a nice way of exploiting the limited issue.
Everyone here knows that EVERY AF (with the exception of the figures sold during the first days of the crisis, like Haruhi Gekisou set that could be found several months after the release) is immediately sold out two days after the release or less so everyone runs at preordering because is a once-in-a-lifetime-chance.
How many of you bought a AF because of the hype, because you want to say "I GOT IT!" on the release day and displaying it? Maybe wasn't your top priority figure but nevertheless you spent your money on it.
Yeah, I know, it's marketing but why brand like Kotobukiya are de-facto massproducing their models (you can always find the figure you're looking for for a very long time after the release) with pretty high quality standards when other big brands (like GSC) still pursue the limited release policy?
I think it's a loss for them since they could sell more pieces reducing the production costs for the scale effect; the most evident episode in this case was the Shuraki set: the first figure solded-out few hours after the pre-order opening and forced GSC to enlarge the production but still the demand was not entirely fulfilled.
Everyonce in a year we look at some mass restocking like happened with Alter's Fate Testarossa (great model for less than 8000 yen) and KOS-MOS v3 but this is never a given, so people prefer to preorder, and even buying even if they don't really want that figure, encouraging the producers to mantain this marketing strategy.
Yup just look at the re-re-issus of GOthic Asuka from Kotobukiya...
Even I got one of them (the first re-issus of the christmas red one).
Regarding the pre-order circus again: There is one more scenario (but it's not that often): A figure comes out and... nobody buys it... and you can find it on sale at a discount of 40 to 60% some months later.
But most the time it's just released and gone.
Regarding limited: I think what Yamato did with their Ignis was a good way: They released three variants of it: Original colors (normal run), red repaint (normal run) and original colors with translucent parts (limited run and 15 Euros more expensive).
I wanted one of them and I really had to think and wager between the cool looking red normal one and the awesome translucent effect.
In the end I bought the "limited" one but not because it's limited, because I wanted the translucent stuff.
I still think the extra 15 Euros wasn't worth it.
5 Euros more for material cost and 10 Euro more for the "limited" sticker is too much but humpf it wasn'T overly greedy.
Sorry to say that again, GSC is a negative example:
Think about the Saber Lily. I got the original figure for 9333 Yen and it's great. No complains about the quality, everything fine (just the gut feeling another company could have put it out for less than 9000) and not a limited edition re-issue:
Just repainted and stripped of her armor (so quite less material) and only 333 Yen cheaper... why??
For the future I fear other companies will do the same and higher the prices... because they see they can and the fact alone that someone in the marketing department could think that is proof enough that market demand is high enough!!
I would really like that someone as Danny could provide us with some information about this kind of industry... Without some solid data this is only speculation.
But one thing is certain: we're allowing this (mad) marketing strategy and the silly thing is that IMHO they are damaging both since they could attain bigger profits by increasing production since the demand is NEVER fullfilled and we could benefit (maybe, but maybe not) with some price decrease via scale effect.
Yup to really understand the facts we need to know some numbers about the real cost of the material.
Let's take my mentioned Tamaki figure from ToHeart2 again. The incredible gorgeous one that costs 8000 Yen.
There are also some resin figures available that look much like this one but cost 13000 Yen.
Sure resin is more expensive but how much in % is material cost and how much something else...
Just one approach to start evaluating.
Anther one is: How complicated is the detailed sculpting of nowadays figures really.
Looking back at my Testarossa figure from FMP, especially her face... the other mentioned current 1500 Yen SEGA price figures have almost the same quality as that older full scale figure!!
It seems nobody has to add anything new (or the thread went down too deep too fast)!!